Curse

Tyla · Jan 22, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

She's a teacher, she can do whatever she wants, and she'll use any reason to justify it if it comes down to it.

Bring it up to admins if you want, but don't expect much.

Yup.

I've been in a few arguments with teachers before. Deputy Head AND the Headmaster making rules up - you can't eat outside on Packed Lunch, which I've done for 3 years without getting in trouble before at the time which the Headmaster calls "luck", someone complaining that I supposedly spread around that it's his birthday and I looked at his ID Card to find that information just saying that "they said X" with no evidence on it, it even boiled down to racism and sacrillage once with some new teacher who everyone hated, but the Headmaster apparently thought "everyone liked" - although I did participate in the small flamewar, he didn't get any punishment of his own within reason.

I think the stupidest time, though, was when I was getting in trouble for wearing a leather jacket when there were other students wearing that form of clothing right infront of him.

Not really "in trouble" here, but some guy a year above kicked my head in and knocked me unconcious (resulted in hospitalisation and my face looked like a f*cking red bulb after the assault, and I was off school for 2 weeks) - what do the teachers and the police do? Police just talk to him, teachers (same one as the leather jacket incident) make me shake his hand and even I had to say sorry. Worst thing is he (apparently) had 4 convictions which the police (for some reason) didn't find.

Result? I just don't respect the police (similar incident happened with my Step-dad, got kicked in by a gang of Chavs) or my schools' staff.

Oh, and for the OP's case? Still complain. The only time someone should be entering your bag without permission is someone who has the authority to do so and has reason to go along with it - if there are accusations of drug posession or any other illegal object, then it should be allowed. Otherwise, the teacher should have acted more rationally and took it to the administration if you failed to do so and they felt that it was an offense. If this happened to me I'd be incredibly pissed off.

Lord Sojar · Jan 23, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I had a similar issue my senior year with my AP Chem teacher. She wanted to destroy all of our lab data, but more than half of us refused. We took it to administration, and she was overruled.

What your teacher is doing, is in fact, against the rules. Going into your backpack is especially way out of the bounds of legality. It is true that a school isn't technically a public place, and they do have the right to search you, but only with just cause (such as searching for weapons, hit lists, drugs, etc)

Be careful though... teachers have a lot more power than you might think. My 2nd semester of grad school, I had a professor who has a complete jackass. I fought him tooth and nail about a lot, and questioned his methods frequently. He gave me a low mark on a magnetics lab, and I took it to the dean. When it was proved that the points removed were not removed from other students labs (I didn't show unneeded calculations with Curie's), the professor was forced to add to my score on the lab regarding the missing formula. Near the end of the semester, the professor started to make things very difficult for me, and would assign the hardest sections of labs to me (assuming they were partner or group based labs) In the end, I had to take issues to the dean regarding my final mark, as he graded the written part of my final with extreme prejudice.

So remember, just because there is a no retribution policy, that doesn't mean that it won't happen. You have to decide if it is worth the headache to report the teacher. If you do, insist you wish to remain anonymous if at all possible.

Snow Bunny · Jan 23, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Just talked with a civil rights lawyer about this last night. The teacher, in that specific scenario, has jurisdiction over your notes, provided they're from her class. You're borrowing her intellectual property by taking down notes - refusing to hand them over amounts to theft.

kostolomac · Jan 23, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

If I was in OP's situation I would go to the head of the school and discuss that rationally. I don't think it's in her power to go through student's backpacks and take anything just like that , let alone destroy it.
I guess I'm lucky since our teachers ask us to keep notes (especially the math teacher) , the only two teachers that bug me are the sociology and electronics teacher.

Black Metal · Jan 23, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Just talked with a civil rights lawyer about this last night. The teacher, in that specific scenario, has jurisdiction over your notes, provided they're from her class. You're borrowing her intellectual property by taking down notes - refusing to hand them over amounts to theft.

oh please, that's the worst legal logic I've ever heard. So now it's theft......but from the student 'stealing' the teacher's intellectual property? This civil rights lawyer must have been consulted from a soup kitchen.

So........following that through......every student who has ever kept notes is a thief. Right. Who else wants a swing at this?

Snow Bunny · Jan 23, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

oh please, that's the worst legal logic I've ever heard. So now it's theft......but from the student 'stealing' the teacher's intellectual property? This civil rights lawyer must have been consulted from a soup kitchen.

So........following that through......every student who has ever kept notes is a thief. Right. Who else wants a swing at this?

It's not theft unless you refuse to hand it over. This is why you're not a lawyer, because you're paying attention to the specifics. You are legally borrowing intellectual property when you take down notes - 99% of the time you just keep borrowing. In the event the teacher requests your notes, they are canceling your borrowership. To refuse such is theft.

You may not like the scenario, but it's true. The teacher has no right to go into your backpack - this is true. But the teacher may inflict punitive action for refusal to return the notes. Thus, the "lunch money" scenario doesn't apply - your lunch money is your own. Notes taken down are not.

This lawyer has a 76% percent success rate, which is outstanding. I daresay they're more qualified than you.

zwei2stein · Jan 23, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Just talked with a civil rights lawyer about this last night. The teacher, in that specific scenario, has jurisdiction over your notes, provided they're from her class. You're borrowing her intellectual property by taking down notes - refusing to hand them over amounts to theft.

But it is not her intelectual property as she is probably not author of anything she teaches (we are talking about high school, maybe lawyer you talked to thought it was one of those expensive courses in X which have tight contracts?), the way she teaches can be considered IP (very arguable), but student notes won't reproduce that because thier own wording of notes will create their own IP.

Refusing to hand over writen down IP being theft is very silly. The very basis of teaching/learning is that you can transfer knowledge and IP. That is what teacher is paid for (and what is in hidden her conrtact) and that is what OPs parents paid for in taxes.

This could be far reaching thou. Is what children hear in school automatically trademarked? Can they be punished for retaining knowledge? Can they be ordered to forget knowledge?

Talk to IP lawyer.

maraxusofk · Jan 23, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I recommend you threaten with legal action after your grades have been finalized. Grades are often at a teacher's discretion, so she can really fk u up.

Snow Bunny · Jan 23, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But it is not her intelectual property as she is probably not author of anything she teaches (we are talking about high school, maybe lawyer you talked to thought it was one of those expensive courses in X which have tight contracts?), the way she teaches can be considered IP (very arguable), but student notes won't reproduce that because thier own wording of notes will create their own IP.

Refusing to hand over writen down IP being theft is very silly. The very basis of teaching/learning is that you can transfer knowledge and IP. That is what teacher is paid for (and what is in hidden her conrtact) and that is what OPs parents paid for in taxes.

This could be far reaching thou. Is what children hear in school automatically trademarked? Can they be punished for retaining knowledge? Can they be ordered to forget knowledge?

Talk to IP lawyer.

Eugh, the CR lawyer is a friend. Finding an IP will be harder. The way he explained it was, it's not the knowledge so much as it's the unique lecture that they're giving you.

The reason this does not come up is that kids normally would just hand over their notes.

I'll see if I can't find an IP lawyer....I'll keep you posted.

Apoc · Jan 23, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Picture of said female teacher, please.

fusa · Jan 23, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Just talked with a civil rights lawyer about this last night. The teacher, in that specific scenario, has jurisdiction over your notes, provided they're from her class. You're borrowing her intellectual property by taking down notes - refusing to hand them over amounts to theft.

If companies can legally sell professor's lectures then I doubt that the teacher could legally take the students notes. University of Florida tried to sue a company that sold professors notes but the case was found in favor of the company. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...942157opa.html

Stockholm · Jan 24, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

oh please, that's the worst legal logic I've ever heard. So now it's theft......but from the student 'stealing' the teacher's intellectual property? This civil rights lawyer must have been consulted from a soup kitchen.

So........following that through......every student who has ever kept notes is a thief. Right. Who else wants a swing at this?

Since when have law and logic anything in common?

Spoom · Jan 24, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Hello from Slashdot! (Where the wonders of Google phrase searching are not lost on us.)

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Do not take this as legal advice.

OP: Take a look at the comments on the Slashdot thread regarding your issue. It's the prevailing opinion of the community (and myself) that you should be raising hell over this. Your teacher had no right to go into your backpack, whether you're in high school or wherever, and regardless of your age. You have rights just like the rest of us. Exercise them. Please don't buy into the idea that just because you're "only" a high school student people can do what they want to you, it's simply not true.

First, you should demand the notes back from your teacher with a well-reasoned response to her arguments (in written form, preferably in an open letter that the other students can read). Beyond that, try talking to your school's principal about the matter, and if he / she does not help, your school board's superintendent. If those fail, see if you can contact a local chapter of the ACLU as they may be able to help.

IMHO this is one of the most ridiculous justifications for an invasive search I've ever heard. Your notes about the class are your hard work and many would say are automatically copyrighted by you under the terms of the Berne Convention. By requiring you to destroy them, your teacher is effectively committing larceny and copyright infringement.

Edit: The arguments that your notes are a derivative of the teacher's intellectual property don't hold weight. It was an expectation that you would be taking notes throughout the course; your teacher has effectively licensed said intellectual property to you for personal use. Besides which, it's almost certainly not her property to begin with; it's what's called a "Work for Hire", which means that since she produced this intellectual property in the employ of the school, it's the school's property, not hers. And my guess is that they want you to learn effectively.

Edit 2: I figured as much: You're almost certainly protected under fair use terms of US copyright law.

Quote:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work; * any judge would give you this point; there's no malicious intent *
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; * in your case very little in a very condensed format, which is good * and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. * in your case, near zero *

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

(Emphasis and comments added.)

Good luck!

CAEsquire · Jan 24, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

(A bunch of drivel) - sorry SB!

I am a lawyer. Having read this whole thread, (linked from Slashdot of all places), I was motivated enough to register and respond. Nothing here is legal advice, and you should seek counsel. Period.

Now to help mess up this mess. The teacher's notes and theories are her own intellectual property. The students notes are considered derivitive works and are well protected under fair use etc. Unless the teacher or administration bound the students by contract at the start of her semester and made full disclosures to them, they would not carry any right to confiscate and destroy the students materials. This would raise the question of whether the teacher or school or district or state can force minors into contract law without a consenting adult, etc.

Basically, the school administration would have VERY weak footing in the matter, and I suggest that you: 1) Write a full recollection of events from the start of the semester and any 'disclosures' they may have made with dates. Get other students to help you. 2) Speak with your parents about this and ensure they are fully informed in the matter. 3) Get lawyer who can assist you, or contact the ACLU.

Personally, I would seek damages for (possibly) destroying unique intellectual property that may or may not have been derived from her teaching. For all we know you may have doodled the next great theory of production-possibility. Expect to at least make her life hell.

icedwhitemocha · Jan 24, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

sup /.

OP, I'd listen to the (possible) lawyer dude. Everything else aside, what really hurts for them is that she went into your backpack... Could have a field day with that alone.

SigmaNunki · Jan 24, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Even IF the IP can be attributed to the teacher (which it can't as CAEsquire has rightfully pointed to fair use), the paper in which it was written on is not her property, nor is the binder that contained it. She also can't go through your things without permission, and you can't enter into contract until you're 18 without a parent's consent (I assume this hasn't happened). So, I'd follow CAEsquire's suggestions. Demanding a public apology wouldn't be out of question either.

But, if you want to be somewhat of an ass as well, I'd demand to be reimbursed for the paper and the binder and any other thing that she took from you. Perhaps give her an invoice on Monday. You could also ask her to justify, to yourself AND the class, how can go into your backpack without consent and remove your personal property. If she sends you to the office, just say something like, "Good idea. The Principle should have the answers as well."

(NOTE: That last bit should be taken as somewhat tongue in cheek. If you do it (or similar) then you bear sole responsibility for those actions.)

X-mass · Jan 24, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

the Op has now been reposted to slashdot, thankfully this site has not as yet been firehosed

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/24/0519226

at last look there were over 300 comments

Spoom · Jan 24, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-mass

the Op has now been reposted to slashdot, thankfully this site has not as yet been firehosed

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/24/0519226

at last look there were over 300 comments

Yeah, those of us who are here now either Googled the question of the OP as a phrase (which is what I did) or were linked here from people who found this thread in the comments. So I think you're pretty safe from the sort of Slashdotting you'd get if the thread was linked from the summary.

Dmitri3 · Jan 24, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Slashdot? And main page? This server is more sturdy that I thought.

Lots of interesting advice, but the thing is, he's still a minor (purely guessing, could be false), so if anything, his parents will have to decide if they want to push for charges or apology. He could of course try to do it by himself, but that would be a lot harder to have any effect.

That's of course only my take on it. Everything is possible if you try hard enough.

Divinitys Creature · Jan 25, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

I had a similar issue my senior year with my AP Chem teacher. She wanted to destroy all of our lab data, but more than half of us refused. We took it to administration, and she was overruled.

What your teacher is doing, is in fact, against the rules. Going into your backpack is especially way out of the bounds of legality. It is true that a school isn't technically a public place, and they do have the right to search you, but only with just cause (such as searching for weapons, hit lists, drugs, etc)

Be careful though... teachers have a lot more power than you might think. My 2nd semester of grad school, I had a professor who has a complete jackass. I fought him tooth and nail about a lot, and questioned his methods frequently. He gave me a low mark on a magnetics lab, and I took it to the dean. When it was proved that the points removed were not removed from other students labs (I didn't show unneeded calculations with Curie's), the professor was forced to add to my score on the lab regarding the missing formula. Near the end of the semester, the professor started to make things very difficult for me, and would assign the hardest sections of labs to me (assuming they were partner or group based labs) In the end, I had to take issues to the dean regarding my final mark, as he graded the written part of my final with extreme prejudice.

So remember, just because there is a no retribution policy, that doesn't mean that it won't happen. You have to decide if it is worth the headache to report the teacher. If you do, insist you wish to remain anonymous if at all possible.

That post made the same point I would - the teacher will find a way to F*** you up they are petty control freaks excusing the few good ones. Appealing to the administration is appealing to more control freaks who don't care about your life. This is the reality of the situation. If you want to do the right thing and fight for your rights, good on you - but it will cost you.